Last time I looked we were living in a democracy, a land of filled with freedoms, called Canada. If muslim women are so ashamed of their bodies, or better still, muslim men cannot control themselves when seeing an exposed ankle, I think they should build and attend their own muslim swimming pools and leave us in peace. What will be next? No kissing in a movie theatre because a muslim couple and their kids are sitting behind you? Sharia indeed. This caving in to one group who is disrupting our free way of life is absurd. Did you hear about this 5 years ago? 10 years? No!
There is a concerted effort by muslims to infiltrate and expand their religion and will use our fair legal system to do it. The joke is on us!

Left by Billy Bob on March 8th, 2007

We bend over backwards to support student groups that for all intents and purposes are shouting the epithets against the Jews heard during the time of the Nazis — what else can you call that disgrace known as Israel Apartheid Week. The only apartheids and genocides I see are in Muslim countries - Saudi Arabia and Sudan to name two of the top of my head. I have never heard fundamentalist Christians or Orthodox Jews demand that U of T subject all students to their religion. It’s time for progressives to say stop - why aer we supporting groups who hate — whether it be Christians, gays, women, Jews — they are all enemies in the eyes of the radical Muslim.

Left by Alandra Williams on March 8th, 2007

There is a difference between immigration and invasion.All across the western world Muslims are pushing their customs onto the rest of us and demanding special privileges.If this doesn’t stop we will soon all be under shar’ia law which is utterly inimical to western life and particularily to the university,the source of inquiry hence the source of human advancement and our standard of living and our hope for the 21st century.This should not be obstructed by the rules of a 7th century warlord whose behavior is beyond description in polite company.

Left by songofroland on March 8th, 2007

Right War, wrong battle.

This request is not unreasonable and not an implementation of, or slippery slope to, Sharia law. You focus too much on the “Muslim” aspect and not on the general request.

Yes, perhaps a large number of Muslims were requesting this, but “Muslim sensibilities” were not the sole reason. The reasons given also included the fact that there is a “predominance of female students on campus (65 per cent of UTSC total population)” and that there had been a “‘fishbowl effect’ that drew gawkers who bothered exercising women.” You focus unreasonable on the “Muslim aspect” without considering other valid reasons. I am certain that there will be woman who have body-image issues who will also appreciate this, but we too embarrassed to speak up at the public meetings.

As well, your snide comment that the website noracism.ca is “ironic because Islam is not a race” is just asinine. It is similar to those who say that they are not anti-Semitic because Jews are not Semites and that they are pro-Semitic because they are pro-Palestinian. The word racism has (perhaps unfortunately) gained currency to apply to forms of bigotry beyond “race.”

The women-only times are not frequent and are during off-peak hours so should not be a huge inconvenience to the male students (or women who want to go with male friends).

Although comments such as: “As a woman, as a Canadian and as a full time student at University of Toronto, I pay for it, I should get it the way I want it…it’s my right,” are so arrogant and selfish as to be scary; they in of themselves do not undermine the general benefit of the proposal.

Our society readily accepts certain separate spaces for men and women (ie bathrooms) and this request does not trespass that boundary.

Left by Jordan on March 9th, 2007

Wow, glad to have found this blog from LGF. I did not know there were still any sensible people still left at U of T. Campus has always seemed a pretty lonely place for sanity to me.

What’s next though? Seperate drinking fountains for Muslims and Infidels?

Left by J Merrick on March 9th, 2007

This is not a sauna nor steam room. When I exercise I am exercising and I hope that others are too. I do not wish, desire, nor expect that because of gender others may not exercise at the same time as I do!!!!! Neither do I expect that my gender, age, political affiliation, and love of the Grateful Dead keep me from exercising with others.

Left by john on March 9th, 2007

@Jordan — Islam is an ideology and not a race. I can see bigots who hate freedom and open society (also known as leftists and postcolonials) trying to make Islam untouchable by claiming it has a genetic basis. It does not. Read some science, especially evolutionary science before you make up such bullshit about Islam being a race. Jews are attacked because of their race, and not because of their religion, BTW, you ignorant fool. Go and read on Nazism, that now leftists have taken a liking to nationalism and socialism.

That pedophile warlord known as Prohpet Mohammad has fooled millions. Its scary to see western educated leftists developing a soft spot for aggression and oppression - as practiced by Muslim leaders and their death squads.

Left by Anonymous on March 9th, 2007

Thanks for the comments everyone. I quickly wanted to address Jordan’s comment, especially this part:

As well, your snide comment that the website noracism.ca is “ironic because Islam is not a race” is just asinine. It is similar to those who say that they are not anti-Semitic because Jews are not Semites and that they are pro-Semitic because they are pro-Palestinian. The word racism has (perhaps unfortunately) gained currency to apply to forms of bigotry beyond “race.”

I do think that it is ironic, especially as Islam is not a race. I think that Robert Spencer at Jihad Watch/Dhimmi Watch is correct when he makes this observation regularly. If we want to talk about a supposed bias against Muslims - that is one thing. But let’s not call it “racism,” and confuse the issue with others.

But, further, and this would not have come through in just my comment above, it is ironic that the website is called noracism.ca, and even more because Islam is not a race, because the task force that the website represents began as a task force to study “Racism, Antisemitism, and Islamophobia.” The task force, for some reason, found that this joint focus was not adequate, and narrowed its focus to cover just so-called “Islamophobia.” When I emailed the VP of Equity at the St. George campus to inquire as to whether the issues of racism and antisemitism had been purged from our campus, I was told that of course they hadn’t been, but that Islamophobia deserved a task force of its own. Initiatives to curb racism and antisemitism would still be pursued, but Islamophobia needed to take centre stage. To this date, I can’t see what initiatives are being pursued to address racism and antisemitism, and was not told of any by the “VP of Equity.” In fact, the campus continues to sponsor events, with my student union fees, that I believe to actively work against the stated ideal of ridding the campus of racism and antisemitism - I am calling some of the student union’s activities antisemitic.

I believe that the website noracism.ca used to be for this broader task force. Now it has been co-opted for the task force on Muslim student needs. It is not asinine, or snide, in my opinion, to point out the irony and inconsistency in this. In fact, I think it is only sensible to do so.

Left by casey on March 9th, 2007

Let’s not pretend this is something that it’s not: It’s about segregating the sexes because of perceived impropriety. There is NOTHING WRONG with forced segregation of the sexes in certain appropriate situations. Let me repeat: There is nothing wrong with forced segregation of the sexes in appropriate situation.

If you disagree, I’d suggest you put your younger sister/daughter in an all-male men’s locker-room after football practice. If you shrug and say “sure,” then you’re a waste of a Y chromosome.

The fact that the people who are conservative enough to put this forth are Muslims does not change anything. It’s bigotry, if Conservative Christians did something like this, and with the unisex/two-sex bathroom controversy in Berkeley they did, it would be smiled off as “kooky Christians.” Instead many of you spin some gigantic conspiracy theory involving dhimmitude and other buzzwords.

Now, I’m not a “liberal,” or a “progressive” or a “democrat” or any other ad-hominem attack you might want to throw at me. Neither am I Muslim or conservative enough to think that forced segregation of the sexes in a gym is desirable.

There are two real concerns that can be addressed here: That a minority of students is threatening and emotionally blackmailing the majority, or that social conservatism is a threat to Canadian life. The second we can dismiss out of hand, because Canada could use a dose of social conservatism. The first is more alarming. If it was any minority, Christian, Atheistic, or otherwise that was forcing the rest of the group to do what it wanted, we should be alarmed.

Let’s not pretend that this just happens when Muslims are involved, we’ve seen this in Universities everywhere. It’s NOT a conspiracy, it’s just the ability of a minority to emotionally blackmail a majority.

Also: Men are dogs (being a man, I think I have some knowledge in this regard) and I wouldn’t begrudge a woman a chance to exercise on her own. Be that as it may, I see no reason why men should be denied access to the gym because of that. It’s like the old saying “All people are equal, but some are more equal than others.”

The secondary question is this: Are Muslims and Women more equal than Christians and Men?

Left by Berkeley Non-Conformist on March 9th, 2007

It’s not sharia - it’s dhimmitude!

Left by City Gal on March 9th, 2007

There is nothing wrong with Islamophobia. It is quite human to hate a gutter ideology such as Islam and to hate its pedophile assassin founder, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), the bandit cum criminal warlord.

Islamophobia is just another code word to silence freethinkers who do not submit to oppression and political correctness dictated from self-appointed leaders. For U of T to equate Islamophobia with racism or anti-semitism, shows the intellectual ignorance of those who are now tacitly supporting misogyny, subjugation of children, oppression of unbelievers and non-Muslims, and advocating the elimination of critics, apostate and blasphemers.

Left by Anonymous on March 9th, 2007

Isn’t “Islamophobia” an entirely reasonable fear of those who want to murder everyone?

Left by anon on March 9th, 2007

So men make up the “Minority” (45%) at the University and they are “Excluded”? Isn’t that sexual discrimination.

Left by JamesH on March 9th, 2007

@ Jordan, I would reiterate what has previously been said in response to your comments, Islam is not a race, its an ideology which seems to be in conflict with all other ideologies and systems of belief present in modern culture. This could of course be attributed to its foundation in seventh century ideas which it has not evolved from or allowed its followers to evolve from. I think Ayan Hirsi Ali has put it quite eloquently, “Islam is incompatible with anything”. this from a woman who suffered genital mutilation and oppression all in the name of the false prophet Mohamed. You sound like an educated person Jordan, perhaps you should do some research before you open your mouth in the future.

Left by Jay on March 9th, 2007

@casey

I would, first off, like to apologize for my use of the terms “snide” and “asinine.” They are the sort of invective terms that do not at all contribute to intelligent discussion.

My response was motivated by being unsettled that a proposal was being dismissed or maligned simply because it came disproportionately from Muslims. The request should be judged by its merits, not by who is proposing it. At base, I believe that this request is reasonable because they are selecting infrequent and off-peak periods and that the complaint that there was a “‘fishbowl effect’ that drew gawkers who bothered exercising women” is legitimate. This proposal is not simply for the benefit of Muslims, but can potentially benefit a much larger spectrum of people.

I focused on this issue and perhaps did not focus on what, perhaps, was your more pressing point, that “the problem [you] have is with the unbalanced and continual giving in to Muslim complaints on campus.” I agree that justifying this decision on the grounds that they were “Taking into consideration the large population of Muslim students” is very unsettling; that, perhaps, this decision was either taken for, or justified by, the wrong reasons.

I also agree that the term “racism” has been distorted significantly from its original meaning and has been widely appropriated to apply to almost any situation involving a perceived basis as a political tactic because to be considered a racist is to be held in near-universal disgust. I have (perhaps too meekly) accepted this “distortion” or “evolution” of the term in popular discourse and am bothered by those who try to de-legitimize complaints by simply stating that they are misusing the term (as they can be much better de-legitimized in other ways) because of the parallels I see to people trying to legitimize their antisemitism by claiming that Jews are not the only Semites.

However, I am very disturbed by the revelations of your subsequent comments in relation to the (former) task force to study “Racism, Antisemitism, and Islamophobia” and in that context I better understand your critique of the term racism.

I stand by my original statement of “right war, wrong battle.” I view this request as reasonable and not specifically for the exclusive benefit of those Muslims who believe in sexual segregation. I am just unsettled by those who reject proposals not on their merit, but because of the person proposing it.

Left by Jordan on March 9th, 2007

Simply enough.. Do the same for guys. Male only workout sessions. Problem solved.

Left by Guy on March 9th, 2007

It’s ironic that roughly 35 years after women protested to be admitted to Hart House (I still remember the men only swimming pool around 1975) many are now clamoring for a women only time. Like the rest of the University, it’s co-ed, get used to it.

Left by John B on March 9th, 2007

Jordan,

I don’t mind being called asinine. It definitely isn’t the worst thing I have ever been called.

I understand your position, I just don’t *fully* agree. In the original post I mentioned that I didn’t so much have a problem with the separate hours for women, but mostly with the reasoning given for the move (though, I think on a co-ed campus, the move is ultimately unwarranted). I further have a problem with people who think that they personally should dictate how a university-wide facility is to be run. The fact of the matter is, as the commenter just above noted, campus is co-ed. If women want to go to a women-only facility, they are welcome to do so. The sticking point is, I believe, that student’s pay compulsory fees that give them the right to use the facilities. As far as I know, there is no way to opt out of these particular fees - if there were, I would, especially when I see what my student union is funding and supporting with my fees (“social justice events” and Israeli Apartheid Week for instance).

Maybe if the decision had been made by a majority of those paying the fees, and it was a mutually agreed upon action, then I wouldn’t have as large of a problem with it. But, as it stands, citing the Muslim population on campus, it appears to me as if it is one more instance of religious tolerance gone too far. Even if we say that it was the majority women - that might be more tolerable to me, as it is a majority, however, in that instance, I believe it would be a mistaken majority, as I am persuaded by the argument of the woman in the original Varsity article. Anyway - none of it directly affects me, as I am on a different campus, and the athletics facility I use already does this (Hart House).

I have just seen too much on campus to make this acceptable to me, especially in light of the forgotten aspects of racism, and antisemitism. I am actually quite interested to see what the report says from the “Taskforce on the Needs of Muslim Students,” and what changes it prompts on campus. I seriously think that U of T will be, before long, much like the situation described at Ryerson in the Dhimmi Watch link above.

Left by casey on March 9th, 2007

“As a man, as a Canadian and as a full time student at University of Toronto, I pay for it, I should get it the way I want it…it’s my right.”

There, now I feel better.

Left by russell on March 9th, 2007

Berkeley Non-Conformist -
You covered almost every argument there, in a negative way - you are so liberal you are against everything.

JamesH -
You wrote “So men make up the “Minority” (45%) at the University and they are “Excluded”? Isn’t that sexual discrimination.”

The article stated “Taking into consideration the large population of Muslim students, the predominance of female students on campus (65 per cent of UTSC total population)…”

I’ll bet you are in the gifted program.

If you can’t see this for what it is – then you are a lobster – you don’t notice the water is getting hotter and you’ll never know when it starts to boil.

Left by rrockbeast on March 9th, 2007

What amazes me is the pure ignorance some people still have after 9-11. Islam was founded by a terrorist who enjoyed buggering little girls when he was 54 years old and enjoying his demanded share of stolen goods from his gangster thug Muslims.

Pure Islam calls for our murder, conversion or enslavement. The only time Muhammad taught peace was when he was in the minority in Mecca. Some people will claim this isn’t true. To those in ignorance let me suggest three questions, when was Muhammad born, what is Dhimmitude, why are 80% of the mosques in the Americas Saudi funded?

The very thought that anyone would surrender their way of life to these Muslim moon goddess thugs is unbelievable and sad. If these meteorite kissers demand we change our laws for them, they should be deported the next day.

Let me put it another way. What kind of freedom do non-Muslims have in Islamic countries? Starting to get the point? “Never give in, never surrender”. Words that are true to this day.

Left by Muhamhead on March 9th, 2007

I am a former Muslim living in Canada. I live as a closet apostate because Canada can’t seem to do anything but appease those who hate us so much. Quran 9:29 dictates that nonbelievers must convert, be subjugated as dhimmis, or be killed.

Please, Canada, wake up. I was a Muslim and I lived with ‘Canadian Muslims’. They hate you and they are trying to destroy your fine democracy by gradual accommodation to Sharia laws in the name of multiculturalism. Stop being politically correct and stand up for your country. I sure as hell am.

Visit www.faithfreedom.org to learn about our grassroots movement of ex-Muslims who want to educate the world about the shocking truth of Islam.

Left by QR on March 9th, 2007

I second the call for Canadians to defend their democracy against the postmodern onslaught of the unholy alliance of leftists, Islamists, and post-colonial neo-fascists.

We will lose this country to authoritarianism and utopian socialism if we do act to stop this left-fascist-Islam alliance.

Left by Hamideza on March 10th, 2007

oops - that is “… if we do NOT act to stop the unholy alliance”. - correction

Left by Hamideza on March 10th, 2007

i teach at an australian uni and i am female. Muslims are not a race here either. /sarc

i can wander into a mens loo if i really have to go, I can wander into a “mens only” post-football changeroom (as referred to above) if I want to - it is not against the law -it is merely a convention to stay out. No one enforces togetherness? why would you enforce separation in any case?

I am an anti-separatist feminist fundamentalist and if you guys at your uni believe that increasing the separation between sexes in this modern world is a good thing, well good on you but we clearly disagree.

It is in both our sexes’ best interests to avoid a sick, sad separated society. A belief system which requires women to observe apartheid is to be avoided at all costs. A belief system that considers men to be inherently dangerous is evil.

Left by kangaroo on March 10th, 2007

If Muslim men had requested a ‘men-only’ period use of the gym, would it have been so easily accomadated?
The arguments for this are ludicrous. If there is indeed a ‘fishbowl’ effect, why not just make mention of it in the gym? Is it not the responsibility of the males to curb the activity? Is that not the Western mentality, as opposed to the ‘Old world’, backwards one so eloquently described by Aussie Sheikh al-Halili, that men are simply cats nipping at uncovered meat?

Left by Jesse Wills on March 10th, 2007

It’s nice to know that ad-hominem is still alive and well in this world.

rrockbeast: Grow up. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Kangaroo: Yes, you’re free to wander in, and I see no reason to change that. However if you’re going to ignore the history of sexual abuse, assault, and other violence against women by male athletes, I don’t know how you can call yourself a feminist.

Segregation is meant to protect women from men. In a society, like most places in North America, where chivalry and protectivism are practiced and preached women and men can freely mingle. In societies like many Arab ones, where men truly ARE animals (Read about the riots in Egypt during Eid), sometimes you need to protect the women from them. If muslim/arabic men think it’s their right to rape women who dress immodestly, we have to keep them away from women who dress immodestly.

I went to Berkeley, which means I dealt with homosexual floormates in the dorms, unisex bathrooms, and pornography scribbled on the walls and attached to my door. I got used to all of them. Be that as it may, I don’t think that most of the above-mentioned features of Berzerkeley are a good idea.

This is NO DIFFERENT from liberal domination of the campus. In fact it IS liberal domination of the campus. Let’s not focus on the “Muslims” by being “Islamophobic” (But in a good way!) but instead focus on the real problem here: Ultra-liberal professors who have a need to oppose anything western, Christian and Classically Liberal. We manage to get them out of power and the “Muslim threat” is no more. This is a plague that has originated in the minds of the west, and will be perpetuated in the minds of the west. We only fear what we are taught to be afraid of, and for a long while that has been nothing but fear itself.

I am a Classic Liberal, I believe in personal freedoms of conscience above all else, and will willingly kill and fight to protect others and their right to be individuals. EVEN, and ESPECIALLY if they disagree with me. It’s strange that the message of Voltaire should be held as contrary to what many of you are saying, and directly contrary to the french.

Cheers.

Left by Berkeley Non-Conformist on March 10th, 2007

There is so much ignorance and hatred on this forum!

I cannot believe that you guys are posting discriminatory comments on a public place as this one!

Making comments such as the ones above about a religious group is discriminatory - it isn’t only race that can be discriminated against.

You claim to live in “free” canada and yet look at the things you guys have posted!

You guys also make comments about certain ethnicities ( about arabmen being rapists!!!) that is RACISM!

RACISM isnt about colour alone. ITS also about your ethnic background.

Wtf?

You call yourselves Canadians look at the things you guys have written about your fellow Canadians who happen to be Muslim.

A lot of the comments made are severely incorrect and so ignorant I still can’t come to terms with the fact that you guys posted them!

All I keep reading are these intolertant, racist, islamophobic remarks all of which I’m sure the Charter would have something against and you haven’t done your homework.

Get your f_____in’ facts straight before you post this bullcrap about other ppl.

Its funny how people fear and then talk shit, without looking at what the hell it is they are fearing.

its funny how Western Media has swallowed so many people! Enough to see disgusting remarks as these made on a forum, where ppl profess to be Canadian.

to the high and mighty “westerners” who posted looking down on other countries as barbaric. I am also Canadian. But I REFUSE to buy the shit you guys spewed forth and I ask you all to get your facts straight.

The last time I checked - the same countries you guys are tlaking about ie. the USA, Australia HAVE HORRIBLE RECORDS WHEN IT COMES TO HUMAN RIGHTS THEY JUST DONT COMMIT THESE ACTS ON THEIR OWN SOIL.

f you all.

Left by Anonymous on March 11th, 2007

rape rates are higher in the Western world than in anywhere else btw.

Left by Anonymous on March 11th, 2007

Oh man. How to begin to pull that one apart.

First, Anonymous, did you read the original post? Just wondering because instead of addressing anything that was raised in the original story, you have come up with a lot of ad hominem, and tu quoque arguments. You mention incorrect and ignorant comments, however you do not identify any of them, and you do not provide any correct, or informed information to counter them. You do a good job expressing outrage about other people’s opinions, but you don’t go much beyond outrage, and you don’t address the issue - which, I will remind, is the reasoning given for women’s only hours as the large Muslim student population.

Secondly, so it is totally un-Canadian to criticize a flawed program, or the reasons given for it…it is un-Canadian to take advantage of free speech…it is un-Canadian to point out cultural mores that happen to be archaic, misogynistic, racist, oppressive, or whatever…but, however, it is completely Canadian to come in here and sign off with the wildly polite “f you all.” Ok. If you say so.

Hey - I some comments I would agree with here, and some comments I agree with but might disapprove of the way they were stated, and other comments still, I would not agree with at all. And its my site. But, comments are rarely moderated, and even you my friend are free to say what you’d like. Next time, though, if you would like to be taken seriously, I suggest articulating a case, rather than trying to bully people with your disgust, and attacking their Canadian-ness.

Left by casey on March 11th, 2007

“rape rates are higher in the Western world than in anywhere else btw.”

That is because the extraordinary freedom that westerners have.
31 out of 33 Islamic countries are dictatorship with a policeman on every corner. Besides, raped don’t get reported over there due to the culture of “shame”.

And then there is legalized prostitution, called “siqeh” (one night marriage with dowry) in places like Iran and Iraq. So that brings reported rape cases down.

Left by Hamideza on March 11th, 2007

Can Anonymous explain how is criticism of the gutter religion of Islam discriminatory? Islam recommends beating your wife. If that is condemned, then why do idiot leftists claim that is discriminatory to Muslims to say its bad to beat women? Do Muslims have a right to beat up women? According to the typical ignorant leftist and I suppose leftist-feminists, Muslims have the right to beat up women.

How is it that when one criticizes the pedophile assassin, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), that one is in conflict with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Only an ignorant leftist can make such claims without explaining the rationale.

The idiot moonbat thinks that Islam is an ethnicity. I guess the leftist fool never heard that Islam was a religion.

Left by Hamideza on March 11th, 2007

What the ignorant bigotted leftists here dont seem to get is that Islam is an acquired ideology where a person adopts by choice. On the contrary, race is something a person is born with and has no choice in it.

But the ignorant postmodern multi-cult leftist wants to claim that Islam is a race or an ethnicity, and Muslims have no choice but to believe in such crap. So in this manner, any debate, talk, or criticim of Islam is strictly forbidden, as that would be racism.

Nice try Jordan and Anonymous - you just managed to show what ignorant fools you are to claim religion is not a matter of choice.

Left by Hamideza on March 11th, 2007

The notion that it’s the Muslim’s fault is always entertaining.

I mean, just because there is an obvious demand from women, both Muslim and non-Muslim alike, to have female-only gyms (ex: Curves), but I guess that logic isn’t as fun cuz it’s more entertaining to scape goat people.

Also, strange how the world hasn’t come to an end when St. George and UTM also adopted similar gender-segregation gym zones isn’t it? I guess one could argue that their gyms are larger (ex: SG has two gyms) but I suppose having 5% of the time for women-only hours is definitely WAY too much and it justifies the construction of an entirely new gym.

Mysteries of the world.

Oh well, let’s go pick on gays and lesbians too! There’s no 100% proof to indicate that what they’re doing is biological, so it’s possible that they are hoarding all that positive space for a personal choice! How unfair!

Left by L on March 11th, 2007

Hey guys, I go to University of Toronto, and I am totally, totally against this policy; as well as my friends…please please join this group and speak up!!!

http://utoronto.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2250212707

Left by One frustrated, angry and enraged U of T student on March 11th, 2007

Thanks for the compliment casey, I’m going for nuance. ^_^

My entire point is that the policy itself is not as bad as people seem to think. The reason that people get up in arms is that it’s connected to Muslims. But the real content of the policy is more along the lines of your connection to “curves.” Women want to be able to exercise by themselves. And I have yet to meet a man who didn’t enjoy ogling women while exercising.

Be that as it may, another question is whether or not it’s a majority or a minority of people who are pushing this policy on the University. Either way it might be a minor dictatorship, because it’s necessarily placing men in a subordinate position.

Other than that, I think the real “problem” is the professors, not the muslims. Unlike Iraq, Al Qaeda, etc, this is a crisis manufactured by westerners for westerners. If it weren’t for our ideological need to make everyone happy then there would really be no problem.

Just a summation.

Left by Berkeley Non-Conformist on March 11th, 2007

Hey Berkeley non-conformist, congratualtions on being a classical liberal - so am I. You write:

“However if you’re going to ignore the history of sexual abuse, assault, and other violence against women by male athletes, I don’t know how you can call yourself a feminist.
Segregation is meant to protect women from men.”

The point is that as a modern feminist I dont want to dwell on the ugly past to make a better future. I want to acknowledge it and move on to a better place. Both women and men need to grow up and get along.

The question is how to get there. I for one, do not subscribe to the (very old-fashioned) idea that women are protected and men are somehow improved in their behaviour if we are segregated. Is that really the best that we as humans can possibly do?

Ultimately it has quite the opposite effect, I would argue. It creates subjection in women (and promotes a belief we are weak and destined to be victims) as well as encouraging repression in men. It helps build up the level of aggression towards us and, in some men, to breaking point.

Thus the level of violence agaisnt women in backward Islamic societies is hideous. And it is not because the perpetrators are Afghani, Iranian, Pakistani or Saudi for example but because they live under such socially repressive regimes (whether tribal or islamic or both) that when suddenly confronted with a person whom they have been brainwashed to believe is “immodestly dressed”, their reaction may be uncontrolabbly violent. These poor men are taught they own us and may punish us, that we are less than them and must hide from them. A pathetic relationship between equal sexes by our standards surely.

So while this revolting state of affairs between women and men does not largely exist in a civilised country like Canada, there is no need to encourage it anywhere either.

We are intelligent human beings, us girls and guys, and we can as individuals be trusted to behave. And that, I would argue, is a classical liberal viewpoint is it not?

Now, as for the terribly polite and obviously modest “Anonymous” who writes a very peculiar and hard-to-follow post saying:

“The last time I checked - the same countries you guys are tlaking about ie. the USA, Australia HAVE HORRIBLE RECORDS WHEN IT COMES TO HUMAN RIGHTS THEY JUST DONT COMMIT THESE ACTS ON THEIR OWN SOIL.”

So how did you “check”, Anonymous? Did you come here? Dont fling insults - describe our horrible record. Last time I “checked” my own society, like when I went out at lunchtime today, the blokes on the street were being pretty courteous towards me and other ‘immodestly dressed’ women. Not quite the case I understand elsewhere (such as in the land of public execution):

http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk/DiscView.asp?mid=864&forum_id=2

and

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8664&size=A

Left by kangaroo on March 14th, 2007

“Espirit d’escalier” I think is the appropriate comment for this situation.

I want to point out to Kangaroo (if she’s here) that if you read the entire context of my argument that I’m actually against the segregation, but I allow the possibility that it may be the democratic choice. I also allow for the fact that where men are trained to be animals, protecting women from them is necessary.

All in all, we only disagree because she argues against the most incendiary points of my posts, instead of the conclusions. ^_^ I’m not one to crow, but there it is.

Left by Berkeley Non-Conformist on March 26th, 2007

But now you dont get even the simplest of thing. Den Leola.

Left by Den Leola on July 4th, 2007

What I just read is a hate and race about Islam.
I thing it’s a good idea that the muslim women can have thier own gym .
I’m not a muslim but I’ll be soon

Left by Lucky on August 3rd, 2007

[…] Lucky on Women’s Only Gym Hours At U of T - Guess Why?: What I just read is a hate and race about Islam. I thing it’s… […]

Left by rain falls on everyone :: theology, popular media, and other » Blog Archive » Responding to Comments on August 10th, 2007

oh when i went away for doing my first chrim. Corrina Eudora.

Left by Corrina Eudora on September 19th, 2007

[…] Women’s-Only Hours At U of T - Guess Why […]

Left by rain falls on everyone :: theology, popular media, and other » Blog Archive » U of T Muslim Student Association Gets Their Way - Still Upset on October 11th, 2007

i’m losing my mind, and i don’t think it’s cleve. Karolyn Leanne.

Left by Karolyn Leanne on October 21st, 2007